Secure ripping

Discuss the current and future development of Max.
chrisgeleven
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Post by chrisgeleven » Sat May 05, 2007 7:44 pm

You may want to check out AccurateRip.

http://www.accuraterip.com/

It sounds similar to what the Comparison Ripper was doing, except using information from everyone online to do the comparison.

Both dbpoweramp and Exact Audio Copy use it.

chgr
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Re: Secure ripping

Post by chgr » Fri Sep 21, 2007 12:19 pm

What is the status of Secure ripping today?
Reading this thread I can see that there was a lot of progress back in 2006 but what about now? I realy would like get rid of my bootcamp partition which I keep only for runing EAC.
Are the error correcting functions as good as in EAC or is there still work to be done? Being a developer maybe I can help!

/Christian

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sbooth
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Re: Secure ripping

Post by sbooth » Fri Sep 21, 2007 5:14 pm

Nothing much has changed in the past year with regard to secure ripping. I have an idea for a way to rework the comparison ripper into an adaptive ripper that combines the best of the basic and comparison rippers using C2 error pointers, but I haven't had time to prototype it.

Meatwad
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Re: Secure ripping

Post by Meatwad » Sat Sep 22, 2007 1:05 pm

So what do folks recommend? I really only want to rip this stuff once. I'm going for as accurate of an archive as possible. I'm doing full paranoia now, but do the truly paranoid say to use EAC instead? Does anyone have any reasonable real-world experience of the two?

And if I decide to rip with EAC does anyone have a good workflow for ripping with EAC but encoding/transcoding with Max?

aka
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Re: Secure ripping

Post by aka » Sat Sep 22, 2007 3:28 pm

While I anxiously await the day Max has perfected secure extraction and can generate a useful LOG, I follow these steps using xACT:
http://puddletowndesign.com/FLAC/macRipping.html
FWIW, security-wise, this scheme also seems to satisfy most EAC users.

Meatwad
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Re: Secure ripping

Post by Meatwad » Sat Sep 22, 2007 7:29 pm

aka wrote:While I anxiously await the day Max has perfected secure extraction and can generate a useful LOG, I follow these steps using xACT:
http://puddletowndesign.com/FLAC/macRipping.html
FWIW, security-wise, this scheme also seems to satisfy most EAC users.
But taking a quick look it seems to use cdparanoia for ripping. Other than logging where a problem occurs you really aren't any closer to secure ripping either way. And Max is a much petter package to use. :)

chgr
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Re: Secure ripping

Post by chgr » Mon Sep 24, 2007 8:17 am

This is my view the Secure ripping issue:

I would like a ripper on the mac that uses a comparing algorithm to make sure that the stream coming from the drive is correct. This algorithm also has to make sure that the cache is in some way cleared for each retry. As far as I can understand this is where Max stands today. I would like to add some kind of error correction/detection to this method so that the ripper can raise a signal when a cd is faulty and that the stream that you rip can´t be 100% trusted. This could possibly be achived using something called C2. At last we can add the accurate rip function which compares your rip result with other guys ripping results that they published on the internet. If we can accomplish this we have a ripper on the Mac that is as accurate and usable as the mythical EAC.

Thats my point of view. Please comment on this if you disagree or think I missed something (just want to make sure that everyone has the same point of view). So who am I? I am a developer which runs a small consultant company here in Sweden. I have been developing software for the last 20 years. Both professional and hobby projects and using everything from assembler to Cobol. I recently switched from the dark side to the mac. I have great interest in music and technology and some people would call me an audiophile. In my opinion secure ripping means that if your ripper says that your rip is 100% ok, you can trust it and know that this is an exact copy of every single bit just like it was recorded to the cd. If it says that your rip is 99% it means that you have to buy a new cd ;) Accurate rip is a nice function but that should just be used as a final confirmation that your rip is ok.

So what can be done here? In my opinion the first thing to do is to add error correction/determination to the comparative ripper. I would really like to help you out with this? Maybe I should point out that I have a general understanding of the IOKit and how to access a CD but I do not know every detail and I have no idea how C2 works. But I would really would like to learn.

So if anyone thinks this is a good idea, where do I start?

shoar
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Re: Secure ripping

Post by shoar » Sun Oct 07, 2007 9:53 am

chgr wrote:This is my view the Secure ripping issue: . . . I would like a ripper on the mac that uses a comparing algorithm to make sure that the stream coming from the drive is correct. This algorithm also has to make sure that the cache is in some way cleared for each retry. As far as I can understand this is where Max stands today. I would like to add some kind of error correction/detection to this method so that the ripper can raise a signal when a cd is faulty and that the stream that you rip can´t be 100% trusted. This could possibly be achived using something called C2 . . .
Hi - first let me say how grateful I am for all the work that went & continues to go into Max - an invaluable & elegant utility.

Re: the above quote, a very real hassle with accurate ripping exploiting C2 reporting in Macs is the quality, or lack of it, of raw output from the default CD-readers Apple have specified.

Many readers - & AFAIK recent Pioneer DVD-burners are among 'em - simply cannot have their onboard hardware interpolation of C2/C1 errors turned off or bypassed.

I assume we've all had the same sort of experience using EAC with a range of readers: essentially, that only a small number of readers [mainly out-of-production Plextors] can really have this C2 reporting feature exploited reliably &/or at a tolerable net readspeed..

I'd suspect - but would be very happy to be shown to be wrong - that Max development along this route might well have to be deliberately limited to specific [third-party] hardware.

Regards & thanks again

SH

NoName
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Re: Secure ripping

Post by NoName » Sat Nov 03, 2007 6:37 pm

shoar wrote:
chgr wrote:I'd suspect - but would be very happy to be shown to be wrong - that Max development along this route might well have to be deliberately limited to specific [third-party] hardware.
I would second that. For the most part, people using Macs have drives that aren't any good for DAE to begin with, and unless they have desktop/tower computers or CD readers in external enclosures, there's not that much that can be done to implement accurate/secure ripping as far as I can see. For anyone who's ever used a secure ripping program under Windows with a mediocre optical drive such as an NEC ND-3500AG as well as with an excellent optical drive such as the Plextor PX-230A (I own both of these), it's obvious that the characteristics of the drive itself have much more to do with success in achieving secure rips than with the software used to perform the ripping.

As far as I understand it, as long as Max doesn't support the detection or even the manual setting of drive offsets, there's no chance that the program could ever be used with AccurateRip.

It's a pretty bad situation having to depend entirely on a Mac for CD ripping. In my opinion we're getting much faster to the point where purchasing lossless or high-quality lossy downloads will be a better option for Mac users than we are to arriving at a secure CD ripping solution. Besides this, all new Macs will run Windows natively, and with Leopard, sharing data files between Mac and Windows partitions is simple. This means that with several Windows-based secure rippers in existence already, it's quite practical for Mac users to pick up a good CD reader, put it in an enclosure, and boot into Windows for ripping CDs, even if the files are primarily intended for use on the Mac system.

Who knows where the future of CD ripping on Mac OS X is going, but to me, the most important features of Max are the ones not having to do with CD ripping, but rather with transcoding and tagging files.

kjoerup
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Re:

Post by kjoerup » Fri Mar 07, 2008 5:53 pm

someone wrote:From the developer of cdparanoia:
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=108647&cid=9242997
ATAPI finally added packet commands for dealing with cache management on ATAPI drives, just like SCSI always had (but most drives just ignored). ..Or you can increase the cache thrashing constant and rebuild. These days computers have more than 8 meg, it's probably worth doing ;-)
Do I understand this correctly? Is Monty saying that the caching problem with cdparanoia can be solved just by increasing a value in the existing code?

Has anyone attempted to do this? I have no idea where to find the cache thrashing constant values, or how much work this would involve, but a rebuilt cdparanoia that would be able to get around the size of a modern drive cache would be a monumentally useful and elegantly simple solution. That is, if it is that easy.....

Any thoughts on this?


This person at Hydrogen Audio managed to do it:
I've found a way around the caching issue & cdparanoia

About caching I've changed from cdparanoia as precompiled package to a manually compiled cd-paranoia from source which is included in libcdio.

Changing the readahead to a value corresponding to > 8MB in the source code as described here actually disabled the cache. This change is documented here :

http://www.nabble.com/cdparanoia-and-ca ... 90032.html
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/ind ... t&p=467357

His link points to this:
Hi,
I'm planning to rip my complete CD collection (~700CDs) and I will use
cdparanoia for that. Yesterday I downloaded the newest src and after a
few minutes I could use cdparanoia. I know that there is a problem with
the newer drives which caches the audio stream. My CD-Rom is a Plextor
Premium who has this problem.
So I googled for a solution and find a promising hint. Increasing the
readahead value should do the job.

After a grep i changed the following:
paranoia/p_block.c at the end is
---------------------------------
cdrom_paranoia *paranoia_init(cdrom_drive *d){
cdrom_paranoia *p=calloc(1,sizeof(cdrom_paranoia));

p->cache=new_list((void *)&i_cblock_constructor,
(void *)&i_cblock_destructor);

p->fragments=new_list((void *)&i_vfragment_constructor,
(void *)&i_v_fragment_destructor);

p->readahead=1200; /* orig. 150 for 1M Cache */
/* now 8 times more for 8 M Cache (Plextor) */
....
-----------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.nabble.com/cdparanoia-and-ca ... 62854.html

I am using a standalone command line version of cdparanoia. I have no idea how to go about accessing paranoia/p_block.c and manually rebuilding, though. If someone here could give me a walkthrough, I'd be very grateful! I assume that it could be rebuilt easily using Xcode?

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Nubben
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Re: Secure ripping

Post by Nubben » Fri Mar 28, 2008 1:31 pm

Stephen,

Sorry to open up this thread again but any news on the secure ripping front? Have the read ahead in cdparanoia been increased or has some other feature been implemented since the last posts a year ago?

(Only discovered Max a couple of months ago so haven't been keeping up with the progress.)

Nubben

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sbooth
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Re: Secure ripping

Post by sbooth » Fri Mar 28, 2008 4:16 pm

The only news I'll report at this time is that my thoughts have changed a little with regards to secure ripping. I think that while paranoia was a good solution when drives were less reliable, to me a better way to extract audio is to rely more on the drive's hardware instead of trying to defeat it. New drives essentially all support accurate stream, and many have good C2 error reporting. So to me the key is to operate more like the comparison ripper does (test & copy in EAC-speak), reading larger blocks and eliminating the multitude of single-sector re-reads and such.

paco
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Re: Secure ripping

Post by paco » Sat Mar 29, 2008 4:03 am

Stephen, could you describe the difference between cdparanoia at Full paranoia and the Comparison Ripper ?

Am I alone in thinking only one ripper option (the best) should be proposed ? Are there any scenarios where one ripper would be better than the other two ?


Thanks,

--
paco

metaclam
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Re: Secure ripping

Post by metaclam » Tue Jun 03, 2008 12:33 pm

yes indeed, any updates on this? still wishing for that nail in the EAC coffin with Max ;-)

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sbooth
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Re: Secure ripping

Post by sbooth » Tue Jun 03, 2008 11:49 pm

I'm working on a new project that should render this thread moot. More to come in the next months...

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