Suggestion: Making the Library OPTIONAL

Discuss the development and future direction of Play.
Paul Gotch
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Post by Paul Gotch » Thu May 10, 2007 11:11 pm

RonaldPR wrote:I think it is not the Library that you want to be optional, I think you want the Play Queue to be optional and be able to play directly from the Library list.
And if you want to do that you might as well use iTunes.

Remain
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Post by Remain » Fri May 11, 2007 2:55 am

RonaldPR wrote:I think it is not the Library that you want to be optional, I think you want the Play Queue to be optional and be able to play directly from the Library list.
Actually, I had considered that,
but there are some key things that the Queue can do that the Library cannot:

1) You can order the list in any order you want, unlike the Library which forces you to sort it by title, artist, album, etc.

2) You can add files to the Queue twice, thrice, etc.

3) The "Clear Play Queue" function or Cmd Shift K (and understandably, the Library doesn't have this, since it wouldn't make much sense for a music library to have a clear all function)

and though I personally don't use these:
4) The ability to have the Play Queue clear itself on quit
5) The "Remove tracks when playback completes" function


These are the reasons for which I said the Play Queue is exactly what I want in a media player.

And in response to Paul Gotch:
Paul Gotch wrote:And if you want to do that you might as well use iTunes.
The lack of the above features are also the reasons for which I stopped using iTunes.



Currently, this is the way it works:

Folders <=> Library <=> Play Queue

But I really do wish there were a way to do this:

Folders <=> Play Queue

RonaldPR wrote:Then why don't you just pull down the separator to hide the Library. You can use Play exactly the way you want to use it.

[...]

A simple select all and delete will clear the Library. But why would you reveal the Library content if you do not want to use it? Will you develop a irresistible obsessive urge to repeatedly look what is in the Library?
As strange as it may sound, yes. =P

But yes, if there's no other way, then I will resort to just pulling the divider to the bottom and then try to just ignore the Library,
though of course, it is still there, not to mention every time new tracks are added, that neat "Adding files to Library" dialog will appear. =P

I just wished there was a more direct way of doing it, that's all, not simply "create the illusion that it's that way."
(Yeah, perhaps I am asking for a lot... sorry. =X )
Last edited by Remain on Fri May 11, 2007 3:15 am, edited 2 times in total.

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k2103
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Post by k2103 » Fri May 11, 2007 3:14 am

I understand very well that I can use Play as a simple reader, and empty the library regularly. But I see also the other possibilities of the program, and I would like to be able to benefit from best from the two worlds (I'm greedy).

Thus, I would like to be able to use the library to store and classify only certain files, my favourites. What is not possible, if I regularly empty it in entirety.

Another option could perhaps be to be able to lock certain Playlists (my favourites) so to prevent that they are removed during a emptying of the library.

Or conversely, when one removes the files of one or more Playlist (the undesirable ones), to have the option to remove them at the same time from the library.

Or that the files added via the Play Queue are placed in a temporary list until one places them in a Playlist (to this moment, they are added to the library), or that they are removed without being added to the library.


I am not sure to know the best solution (I'm not a programmer), but I'm certain that it exists and that it would bring an important asset to a program which is already excellent.
RonaldPR wrote:What do you mean exactly? You do not actually suggest to place (copies of) the music files in a temporary folder, do you?
I understand very well that the data base does not contain really the musical files...

RonaldPR
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Post by RonaldPR » Fri May 11, 2007 7:26 pm

I wonder: Maybe there should be a command, for instance a key combo command-delete (backspace) or a key combo option-command-K, that when used on selected tracks anywhere in the interface (library, play queue, playlist) will always remove the tracks from the library also.

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k2103
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Post by k2103 » Fri May 11, 2007 10:12 pm

A very good idea, provided that it is easily feasible.

But I have just discovered that this option already exists partially.

By selecting “Recently Added”, we obtain a list of the last 25 entered titles. If the titles of this list are removed, they are also removed from the library. Contrary to the Playlists and the Play Queue.
It is the equivalent of what I called “a temporary folder outside the library”. It would be only necessary that this list was not limited to 25 like currently. It could, rather, corresponds to a certain number of days (determined, preferably, by the user).

In fact, what I seek, it's a simple way to remove some recently added titles, without having to deeply search all the library.

N.B. I don't know if that would also bring a beginning of solution to Remain?

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Milkmaster
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Post by Milkmaster » Sat May 12, 2007 5:55 pm

Another alternative would be to make Play add only files from certain directories. Something in the line of: "Only add to library if found in:" and a dialog to choose specific folders.

It doesn't disable the library altogether, but it keeps it from growing in an uncontrolled way. That way if you pull the divider down and someday up again you don't see a monster called library, but an ordered list of your stuff.

Would that be easier to implement than the option to switch off the library?

Remain
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Post by Remain » Sat May 12, 2007 8:30 pm

RonaldPR wrote:I wonder: Maybe there should be a command, for instance a key combo command-delete (backspace) or a key combo option-command-K, that when used on selected tracks anywhere in the interface (library, play queue, playlist) will always remove the tracks from the library also.
Hey... this got me thinking...

Wouldn't the simplest solution (as in the one involving the least changes and the least work) be simply this:

A pref to have the Library correspond to whatever is in the Play Queue.

Basically, with this pref turned on:

-When you add a file to the Play Queue, it is also added to the Library. (this is already the current behavior)
-But when you remove files from the Queue, it is also removed from the Library.

So one can just pull down the divider and ignore the Library,
without having have to worry about the Library building up to potentially hundreds of files.
The Library will always only be as big as the Play Queue.

(note: Obviously, one exception is that if a file is added twice to the Queue, it won't be added twice to the Library, since that is not possible.)

Basically, this solution would involve no "turning off the Library," which would probably prove to be very complicated to pull off.

It will simply modify the current behavior of the Library a little bit.
Last edited by Remain on Sun May 13, 2007 4:55 am, edited 1 time in total.

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k2103
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Post by k2103 » Sun May 13, 2007 2:52 am

Milkmaster wrote:Another alternative would be to make Play add only files from certain directories. Something in the line of: "Only add to library if found in:" and a dialog to choose specific folders.
The solution that you propose corresponds exactly to my expectations. A library managed very easily and in a very personalized way. We create our Playlists and we integrate into them our musical titles, directly or via the Play Queue.
We can use the Play Queue as a simple reader, but there is always the possibility of sending to different Playlists, the titles which we have listened.
And the library is only made up of the titles contained in our Playlists. Marvellous.
k2103 wrote:I understand very well that I can use Play as a simple reader, and empty the library regularly. But I see also the other possibilities of the program, and I would like to be able to benefit from best from the two worlds (I'm greedy).
I don't know what the creator would say, but I fear that this solution implies an important reorganization of the program. I think (maybe I'm wrong) that the Playlists are not independent real entities, but only some selections of titles chosen in the library, some images of parts of this one. The titles of a Playlist are only alias of titles contained in the library. They must initially exist in the library to be able to find itself in a Playlist, and the reverse is not possible.

In my opinion, the only exception to this is the “Recently Added” repertory, since the titles which we remove of this repertory are removed at the same time from the library. This is why I plan to present another option based on this inherent advantage of the “Recently Added” repertory.

ps
I think of sbooth which perhaps reads us, and does perhaps not agree to do all this work that we ask him, and so generously.

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k2103
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Post by k2103 » Sun May 13, 2007 3:38 am

Remain wrote:A pref to have the Library correspond to whatever is in the Play Queue.
This solution meets one part of my expectations, but do not improve at all the management of the library which I much value and which is the essential of this program.

I prefer to consider a more global solution, like that of Milkmaster which, even if perhaps more complex, aims at the best of the two worlds.

To meet your need, it would be simpler to create a different version of the program, who could be named Play Lite. :wink:

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Milkmaster
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Post by Milkmaster » Sun May 13, 2007 10:24 am

Hm, I don't want to discourage anyone to use Play or to post here, but have you already had a closer look at Cog, Remain?
On first glance (last time I played with it, is some time ago) it does aout the same as Play, only without the library. Maybe you could use Cog, at least for the time being?

Remain
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Post by Remain » Sun May 13, 2007 11:03 am

I use both Play and Cog, actually. =P

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k2103
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Post by k2103 » Sun May 13, 2007 2:38 pm

I like Cog, a simple player which uses only 10 MB, but it does not read Apple Lossless (M4a), the format of reference for Apple and, in my opinion, the format of the future.
There is also iTunes with 75 MB, but it does not read Flac, Ape, ogg and several others.
Songbird, superb, but very heavy with 112 MB and which does not accept Ape.

Since I have a large musicotheque in several musical formats, I had to use more than one player.

Play, toddler with it's 13 MB, player and library, is a wonder which reads all the formats that I use.

This is why I am so much interested in its development and why I would like to suggest some improvements which would make of it the program by excellence for all.
With its mean size, it could be well allowed to take a few Kilos (MB). :wink:

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k2103
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Re: Suggestion: Making the Library OPTIONAL

Post by k2103 » Mon May 14, 2007 3:24 pm

Remain wrote:Not everyone uses the Library concept to browse and organize music.
Let us return at the beginning.

You see in the Play Queue of Play an excellent music player and you would like to be able to manage it in your own way and preserve it between launches. And you would not like to see (or imagine) a library developing in a disproportionate and anarchistic way in parallel.

Managing, means:
- Adding files, even several times, for listening
- Classifying the list as you want
- Remove titles when it is necessary

All that is possible in the current state of Play. You only need to apply the following principle:

1. Always add titles via the Play Queue
2. Always remove titles via the library

Thus, the two contents are always identical and the Play Queue works like you wish.

Remain only some minor drawbacks.
Obviously, it is necessary to remember that you should not use any more the options:
- Clear Play Queue or Clear Play Queue on quit
- Remove tracks when playback completes


And the advantages of the library are always available if, perhaps, you change your mind.

Am I right?

Remain
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Re: Suggestion: Making the Library OPTIONAL

Post by Remain » Mon May 14, 2007 9:41 pm

k2103 wrote:All that is possible in the current state of Play. You only need to apply the following principle:

1. Always add titles via the Play Queue
2. Always remove titles via the library
Actually, this is exactly what I do.
k2103 wrote:Obviously, it is necessary to remember that you should not use any more the options:
- Clear Play Queue or Clear Play Queue on quit
- Remove tracks when playback completes
And you've just describe exactly what I've set in Prefs.

(You must be clairvoyant. =P )


And yeah, this s an approach that works,
but you gotta admit, it's a little weird to always add tracks to one list, and to remove tracks from another.

Well, I suppose nothing can be perfect for everyone.

Jun-Dai
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Post by Jun-Dai » Tue May 15, 2007 7:30 am

I'd like to add my quick vote for making the library optional, or at least make it appear to be disabled. I've always managed my music in folders on external drives, so I don't like to have players try to remember where the music is, because half the time the music isn't there because (a) I've removed the drive, (b) I've reorganized the music, or (c) I was just listening to something once and no longer have it.

That said, now that I've discovered Cog (the purest model of a lightweight music player I've seen), I'm no longer in grave need of a player on OSX that suits my needs perfectly, but if I could configure Play to appear not to have a Library, I'd probably switch back.

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